Ethanol Related Email I Received

[HoleShot18]

The kit may cost a bit, however I think its worth it for a more accurate test of the fuels we use. I personally have no problem taking my time at the pump to test. I had to rebuild the injectors in my Yamaha 115 FS a few months back because of the cleaning e-10 gave my 2004 tank, after a complete fuel system clean out and over $2000 spent, I have religiously pumped fuel into a 1qt mason jar and sat on the gunnel watching for separation before every fill-up, better safe than sorry.

On another note; Heads up to South Florida boaters, my cousin and I follow the same practices, myself for about 6 months, him since e-10 made an appearance, and we have found that Mobil/Chevron fuels are usually cleaner. Personally, since my repairs, I fill at the 136 st Mobil in front of the falls shopping center every time, I have never found a problem with their fuel, and I live nearby and remember them replacing their tanks 2-4 years ago, and FYI, I still check it every time

[Dayne Brady]

Hello all,

In response the Ethanol issues. There is a little trick everyone can do with gasoline that is blended with Ethanol. If you put a some gasoline that has ethanol in a container and leave the off it for while you will start to see water deposits forming in the gas. The gasoline with evaporate off and leave the water in the container. Don't make it to deep or it will take to long for you to see the results.

The ethanol pulls the humidity out of the air and sense all of our fuel tanks have vents it creates a vacuum that pulls in the air and leaves the water. I stumbled across this by accident. I had poured some gas from a container to use it for cleaning parts but I got side tracked. When I came back I noticed there was pools of water at the bottom of the gas.

Well curiosity got the better of me so I cleaned everything up and did it again and guess what??? I could watch the pools of water materialize in front of my eyes. SO, I being in the fuel industry made some calls and I was shocked that they knew about it already.

This problem is worse in coastal areas than the areas of the interior United States but it is happening everywhere. I don't know what the answer is but I keep dry gas in my tank and I use the Blue Stabil in my tank and it does not seem to be as bad.

I hope this helps but us Mariners are in for a long haul.

Dayne

[pondfisher]

E-10 cost me nearly $1K in types of repair work I had never needed with previous boats/motors. $200 for long hose specialist to syphon out 3 gallons of water/contaminants from gas tank. NEVER had to do that prior to E-10 on any other tank I'd ever used... and this was a relatively new gas tank compared to my others. Approx. $600 in gas lines, carb kits, etc. Had to bring the boat back to the shop THREE times before they realized what was truly going on. E-10 is bad news and if you haven't had the misfortune (and I hope you don't) of it hurting your wallet, you likely will at some point - like after you've driven all the way to the ramp, just getting your boat out of the shop, to launch and realize that your motor shakes and sputters rather than idling, and won't even come close to getting the boat on plane. It's a nightmare that I would have gladly paid $100 or more on a test kit to avoid the larger problem.

Like we're all just making this up or something because we have nothing better to do.... geez.

[jason lane]

Just use Star Tron and don't worry about it.

[Mweathers]

E10 not only absorbs water, but it will phase separate if you do not run the boat often. On top of that, if you have an older boat....it will scrub all the trash off the tanks and lines resulting in clogged filers...***uming you have at least a 10 micron filter on the system.

FL has a bigger problem than most, becaue of the humidity. Keep your tank full. Use a 10 micron filter with a water guard on it, you should have no problems, unless you do not run the boat often.

Mike

[Flyingooner]

Have a question about fuel going bad. I bought a new 17 Micro a few months ago, but I have not been able to get it out for the last couple of months. I noticed last time out it was sputtering a bit. I put some e-10 gas in it on the way home and added the marine stabil as well. I went out to just start it awith the hose hooked up to it and it was hard to start, and would not idle unless I bumped the RPM's up a bunch. Took it to a yamaha dealer in Ocala and they re - did the carbs, new plugs,etc, but did not drain the gas tank. I thought that was alittle odd, if the gas gone bad is the problem why leave it in there? I was charged $650 to do the work, but am a little leary that this will happen again and sooner since it has already sat in the tank for nearly three months now. Not a mechanic, but it didn't seem logical. Anyone have any thoughts out there?

[JimSA]

Does anyone know which is better for treating the E-10 gas blend, Star Tron or STA-BIL blue?

[hurricanedavid]

My understanding is that they are about the same but my engine mechanic has little faith in either.

[JimSA]

The dealer's mechanic who put on my new yammie said to run ring free/sta-bil in every tank, plus make sure to run it every few months at a minimum. I wish the gas companies would let those who want to buy that E85 or blended fuel buy it, and those who do not could buy 100% gasoline.

[oldsalt]

No one wants to install the extra tanks

[rancher Mike]

A recent discussion on E15.

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/514971-brp-engineer-testifies-on-dangers-of-e15

Full testimony transcript here.

[bumblebeecreek]

Our marina sells only ethanol-free. Only catch is that it is $4.59 per gallon. Beats a trip to the mechanic, though.

[bilge rat]

We have 6 stations in town that sell 89 octane non E gas for 3.95 to 4.00 gall.

Lots of lawn maintance crews use it too.

[slyshon]

Department of Energy Reports Show Severe Damage to Marine Engines from E15, Reinforcing Recreational Boating Industry Concerns

WASHINGTON, D.C. – October 25, 2011– On Friday the U.S. Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency & Renewable Energy released the results of two studies on the effects of using fuel that is 15 percent ethanol in volume (E15) in marine engines. The studies were conducted on engines provided by two marine engine manufactures; Both are members of National Marine Manufacturers ***ociation (NMMA).

The long-awaited reports show significant problems with outboard, stern drive and inboard engines. Results of the reports show severe damage to engine components and an increase in exhaust emissions, reinforcing the recreational boating industry’s concern that E15 is not a suitable fuel for marine engines.

Emissions and durability testing compared E15 fuel and fuel containing zero percent ethanol (E0) and examined exhaust emissions, exhaust gas temperature, torque, power, barometric pressure, air temperature, and fuel flow. Specifically, the report showed degraded emissions performance outside of engine certification limits as well as increased fuel consumption. In separate testing on engine durability, each tested engine showed deterioration, including two of the three outboard engines, with damages severe enough to prevent them from completing the test cycle. The E0 test engines did not exhibit any fuel related issues.

NMMA worked with its manufacturer members in securing the resources and facilitating the testing for these reports. NMMA supports further testing that will provide additional understanding about the negative effects of E15 on marine engines.

NMMA President Thom Dammrich says, “Current proposals by the ethanol industry to increase the amount of ethanol in gasoline should seriously concern all boaters and owners of other small engine equipment. Although NMMA strongly supports renewable fuels as a means to reduce America’s dependence on foreign sources of oil and improve the environment, there is growing evidence that ethanol is not the answer to America’s energy challenge.â€

For more information, please read the full versions of the Emissions and Durability test or the Fuel Endurance test from the Department of Energy. For questions or media inquiries please contact Lauren Dunn at 202-280-6928 or ldunn@nmma.org.

Both Volvo Penta and Mercury Marine provided test engines as well as the testing facilities. The U.S. Department of Energy approved the final analysis of the results.

[donc]

What type of tank is in the 05 20? And if I use my boat 2 to 3 times a month how much do I need to worry about fuel seperation. Have looked on like very confusing. Thanks Donnie

[Fish Food]

DonC,

I don't know about the tank, but I would recommend using a fuel stabilizer and that will reduce the risk. I use Pri-G and have not had a problem. Keep the tank full in general. When I reach half, I fill her up(this helps with condensation).

[rancher Mike]

These are good ideas. For myself I just dont ever use ethanol fuel. I look at it like a long term insurance poicy that may help me avoid costly ethanol related problems down the road. That's how I justify paying more for the non ethanol fuel.

I also use ring free at every fill up.

One thing whatever you do... DO NOT mix the fuels. If you choose one then stick with it. Unless you have your tank pumped and cleaned if you want to switch.

[donc]

Thanks for the info I live in Gainesville and the non ethanol gas is very hard to come by thats why I use the ethanol gas. I do use sta bill but dont usually fill the tank as I tow the boat 60 miles each way guess I need to start doing that. Thanks for the words of wisdome.

Donnie

[HoleShot18]

I know everyone doesn't have the option of running non ethanol fuel, if you do, use it. I have rebuilt injectors and pumped my tank on one oc***ion, and on a second, had to completely replace injectors along with the tank service, and replacement of all fuel lines. Both times, Skip Trent, who is known in the south as the go to guy for fuel issues, serviced my tank. His recommendation the first time was, as stated by others, do not mix fuels, keep tank topped off, DO NOT RUN CONSTANT ADDITIVES, except yamaha fuel dryer once a year, and furthermore, if you are not a professional, using the boat near daily, do not use ethanol fuel. I followed his precautions, with exception to the no additives one. I was convinced by other boaters, and forums, that stabil was a necessity. My second bout was spurred by a fuel up at an unfamiliar marinara, haulover, during a long hunt. I failed to note the ethanol stickers on the pumps so far above the cement platform where I was handed the hose. My next outing was, of course, sans push-pole or trolling motor, taking my sister and nieces tubing. Half mile out of matheson I felt a familiar spuddering... The uscg required paddle is not a good way to travel in wind... I made it to the flats along the mainland, and walked the boat until a friendly sportfisher towed me from the channel. Upon pump out, skip laughed as he showed the near 3 gallons of stabil that had built up at the bottom of the 40 gal tank. I was stunned to say the least, looked like farm diesel in there. That was near a year ago, and I'm running better than ever, with nothing but rec 90.

[donc]

so you think the additives are not a good thing?guess i will start filling my tank

[FlatOn]

Skip, thanks for the info

[mustang190]

I'm new here and ran across this topic, I haul fuel and can give a little insight to this subject.

All gasoline in Florida comes to the distributer as 100% gasoline, no ethanol. All ethanol is railroaded in and some is trucked in. It is then loaded into a seperate tank at the distributer.

When I arrive at the distributer to load my truck the ethanol is metered into the tanker as the customer prescribes. All loads get 8.5-10% ethanol per load. Usually the ratio is 9%. If you look closely at the label on the pump it says "up to 10% ethanol", that 1% less saves the gas station money.

Luckily up here in the panhandle some stations can bring their gas in from Alabama or Georgia and can get around the ethanol mandate by the state, it cost more to transport it but the extra 15-25 cents is worth it.

The state finally approved the marine fuel exemption and some gas stations here can now get ethanol free gas from a in state distributer but it has to be labeled as marine grade and the station can charge what ever they want for it.

[Popping Cork]

I've been running ethanol gas in my F150 and haven't had one issue yet. I do change my fuel separator every six months, keep the tank topped off and use stabil every other tank.

No issues. (knocking on wood). I am about to change my fuel line and a couple other things next week.

[Funky Monkey]

Over the past several months, we seem to be regaining some ground against Ethanol,...not enough, sadly, but at least, it’s a glimmer of hope.

USA Today editorial

Funny, this was obvious to many of us on day one of the mandate, so why did it take so long for anyone to notice?? I know. I know. It was a rhetorical question. Rhetorical kvetchin’ just makes me feel better. ;-)

Here's hopin', boys'n'girls!!!

Marcus

One Half of the Hydrodynamic Duo :cool:

[FLATS-RASCAL]

Great article Marcus. I'm starting to see more adds on Television about the very harmful effects of CORN JUICE. I'm very p***ionate about ONLY USING REC 90. NON-ETHANOL GASOLINE. My F-250 O/B has never tasted E-Fuel. All of our vehicles (2 German cars and an American 3/4 ton p/u trk.) are Clean Turbo Diesels. I use Rec 90 in all my Lawn equipment, pressure washer, generator etc. NO CORN JUICE IN MY LIFE. The small extra price is worth it. My 17 yr old chain saw started on one pull the other day, even after hanging in the shed for 3 yrs. It still has the original fuel hoses & primer plunger (ethanol eats those things like candy).I use the old cheapo red sta-bile in most of the equipment that's not used often.

My neighbor (lots-O-Pine Trees) uses his chainsaw twice a year w/ the niblets juice, and has to drain his tank each time he uses it (Stihl), and has replaced fuel hoses twice.

...and in this baby (sold the other Harley's and the Vette), I use SUNOCO OPTIMA 95 Octane Non-Oxygenated Non-Ethanol RACE FUEL. It's my 2001 Limited Edition Harley-Davidson CVO Factory Custom FXDWG-2 Dyna Wide Glide. Every NUT, BOLT & WASHER has been replaced with Extra Brilliant Polished Stainless Steel or Titanium. That's the OEM Paint with OEM 23 KT Gold Leaf Flames and OEM Ostrich Seat. The Bike "LOOKS" STOCK. Everything you "SEE" on it is bone stock, Just the way I bought it new in September 2000 from Harley-Davidson, except for the Vance & Hines Pro-Pipe 2 into 1 Exhaust. If somebody's really looking, they can see the "Screamin' Eagle" logo on the HIGH FLOW HEADS, and if they are paying attention, they can hear the lope of the Bumpity Bump SE 258 cams... but most think it's just a stock motor. Big Motor w/ BIG CARB (that's right NO FUEL INJECTION!) 7200 RPM Redline...ABSOLUTELY NO CORN! It's not for long rides...Just a Saturday Nite Special (or short Sun.Morning rides). Don't have to worry about refueling from a "Street Pump".

[image]http://www.mbcforum.com/fbbuploads/1381411654-My_Red_Dragon.JPG[/image]

N O F R E A K I N' C O R N J U I C E !