Mega Bites Posted May 13 Author Report Share Posted May 13 Afternoon report Dealer does not see any evidence of hook on hull….Whew!…. Negative Trim Wedges should arrive tomorrow. Dealer’s water test this afternoon after getting port tab flush is that without any tab but engine trimmed down, significant porpoising still starts at 4200 RPM with one person and full fuel. With engine trimmed all the way down, and Tabs (both are working now) about half way can settle it…..They have been able to get it to 46 mph (5600-5800 but short of WOT) using the Power Tech4 blade SCD prop….Weather conditions weren’t ideal as there were flash flood warnings there this morning…so uncertain how much they have pushed it on top end… I should be able to water test myself tomorrow afternoon if wedges come in AND weather cooperates…. Test water way is a apparently a straight shot canal…but anxious too as the last time I ran the boat, one trim tab wasn’t working at all, the other was 1/4” below the hull instead of flush when not in use, the transducer was rooster tailing and the live well was unexpectedly picking up water. (As I mentioned earlier in the thread, drain hoses for hatches weren’t connected so they had to cut a hole in the boat to get access. My guess is valve was opened to test live well after they moved bubbler. Logical that it would - I assumed it was closed )…Chaos theory for my last run! Anyway, hopeful that with the prop testing, and other tweaks that a workable solution is nearing - so on Wednesday I can do a real world test including testing on turns. My guess operationally, might trim down some at start of hole shot and reduce trim as it gets past 4200 plus - but obviously won’t know until I run it a bit…. greatly appreciate all the feedback….I am anxious to see if I can identify the sweet spot for cruise since several have suggested it does better faster. We still have tools to try if needed….cavitation plate is there just in case we need it…engine still on top hole….jack plate consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneyB Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 I have been following along on both threads but I can’t remember if you ran the pro series 21 pitch Yamaha propeller? Obviously your dealer is doing a lot of good work on your behalf. I actually just went to look at the specks on your boat and see that they ran it with a 115 and the max horses of 150. The act of the porpoiseing is the boat trying to climb onto a running plane that it just can’t stay on so it falls back down. I know you have done a lot of testing and really it is all trying to do the same thing. Big ear thee blade props 4 blade props all trying to hold the hull up. The wedges are just going to tuck the motor under the boat and try to push it up more but will you ever be able to use the trim after that? Like in theory wouldn’t it just move the motor back to an angle it was in before the wedges as you trim it up? I’m not saying so not put them in I’m just spit balling here. I think I wandered around here and didn’t say much of anything constructive. But I would look for a big eared prop that will help hold her up and just see where she lands on speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 14 Author Report Share Posted May 14 16 minutes ago, HoneyB said: I have been following along on both threads but I can’t remember if you ran the pro series 21 pitch Yamaha propeller? Obviously your dealer is doing a lot of good work on your behalf. I actually just went to look at the specks on your boat and see that they ran it with a 115 and the max horses of 150. The act of the porpoiseing is the boat trying to climb onto a running plane that it just can’t stay on so it falls back down. I know you have done a lot of testing and really it is all trying to do the same thing. Big ear thee blade props 4 blade props all trying to hold the hull up. The wedges are just going to tuck the motor under the boat and try to push it up more but will you ever be able to use the trim after that? Like in theory wouldn’t it just move the motor back to an angle it was in before the wedges as you trim it up? I’m not saying so not put them in I’m just spit balling here. I think I wandered around here and didn’t say much of anything constructive. But I would look for a big eared prop that will help hold her up and just see where she lands on speed. Only Yamaha we tried was the Talon. Powertech NRS and PRO were others in addition to SCD. I think the wedges give a bit more range. No one told me they saw any downside. I don’t know All my prop experience in 50 plus years was replacing worn props . Or a sheer pin a loooooog time ago in icy conditions on a duck hunt I need to get my eyes on it. Probably have a charter Capt with same boat jump on Wed so two eyes can assess. He has 140 Suzuki though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 14 Author Report Share Posted May 14 Part of the problem with specs on the Mav site is I think they are 2017. We looked at that for a guide. But lots changed I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneyB Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 41 minutes ago, Mega Bites said: Only Yamaha we tried was the Talon. Powertech NRS and PRO were others in addition to SCD. I think the wedges give a bit more range. No one told me they saw any downside. I don’t know All my prop experience in 50 plus years was replacing worn props . Or a sheer pin a loooooog time ago in icy conditions on a duck hunt I need to get my eyes on it. Probably have a charter Capt with same boat jump on Wed so two eyes can assess. He has 140 Suzuki though Props are voo doo magic for sure. Of all that you have said if the max HP is 150 at 115 ponies you are going to experience a totally different boat. It’s almost like rather than lifting the hull with props and such it needs to stop trying to climb out of the water. I know you tried to move some weight forward but try stacking some old batteries forward and just see how much weight it would take to hold the front down. I know it’s not optimal but you are trying everything else. I have seen others say they add lead to the bow for just that. I know it’s counter to every thing you are doing but what’s the harm in adding some weight to the bow for one of your test runs. If it hold the bow down everything else will come in line as in trim and rpm’s per each prop. The guy with the 140 should be good eyes. Even though he has a few more ponies his foot is running the same diameter prop that you can turn and he likely doesn’t really have a lot more torque than you do either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Seither Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 Wedges I get more negative trim without tabs for hole shot and turning, no downside, Bobs true track plate provides stern lift as well, some of the props may need to be rerun after changes, not sure how your boat is loaded, mine unloaded will bump rev limiter, loaded which is the way it stays 6100 rpm. Some boats require rebalancing, not sure your there yet, second set of eyes will be a help. Bow does need to come down, tabs and trim are telling you this, like Honey b said you always have the option of playing with weight to see what it takes to calm it down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneyB Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 Point of note I am not saying there is anything negative about wedges or fins. I am just trying to understand what the boat is asking for.. the best I can tell is nose down. Bottom up 🤣 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 14 Author Report Share Posted May 14 The trolling motor is 110 lbs shipping weight. It’s a beast. Lithium in now also. Interesting that Markus wanted to try it without trolling motor weight. But big beast trolling motor is how I use it always. It’s about 30 lbs heavier than previous generations. Seemed to me a good bit of weight. I do have an AARP friendly tarpon cage being built which will add some weight beyond the normal leaning post I use. Anither tonight really felt strongly going down a notch to raise motor. Need to put my eyes on it tomorrow with the pocket. My experience with jack plates is I always seem to trim them up a bit so that seems something I should consider-particularly since we are doing wedges. it’s all voodoo for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Seither Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 Yep, it’s asking for bow down, I think I understand what Joe is doing( danger part me thinking I understand lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 14 Author Report Share Posted May 14 26 minutes ago, George Seither said: Wedges I get more negative trim without tabs for hole shot and turning, no downside, Bobs true track plate provides stern lift as well, some of the props may need to be rerun after changes, not sure how your boat is loaded, mine unloaded will bump rev limiter, loaded which is the way it stays 6100 rpm. Some boats require rebalancing, not sure your there yet, second set of eyes will be a help. Bow does need to come down, tabs and trim are telling you this, like Honey b said you always have the option of playing with weight to see what it takes to calm it down Yes we have rerun props on each change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 14 Author Report Share Posted May 14 I really thought my focus now would be on finding clean water and fish. Not dialing in a boat. Not having a hook was huge since that meant trip to manufacturer. Sometimes I feel simple is a jack plate since that’s my experience but the warnings about adding weight and distance plus I guess 3 owners now that removed their jackplates to get better performance has me pushing that down the list. On the list but moving things ahead. my guess my test plan is have it fully loaded with fuel and gear, a second person and negative trim wedges installed. Trim motor and tabs for hole shot, keep some tab for mid range to see if I can mitigate around 4200 problem area. and then reduce tab as I throttle toward WOT. As I gain speed, experiment with trim . try some turns and more. Probably then determine whether it’s workable and I need to go fish. or adjust motor height where plate is about 1” above setback pocket. Repeat test and adjust. open to critique of plan but what I am thinking. Weather not looking great though for tomorrow. Wednesday more promising. again appreciate the input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 15 Author Report Share Posted May 15 On 5/10/2024 at 1:28 PM, dabear said: Mega Bites I am sure that after you add the neg trim wedge and keep the motor at the lowest position because it’s needed in tight turns with the 18 HPX that you will notice the ride and hole shot improve with the tabs all the way up . If you’re not a speed nut try and find a Merc Spite Fire prop to test with it’s a great all around prop . If your into a nice ride with the boat trimmed out in the air a Pro Series 3 power tech in a 19 pitch will be a good start . If you run lite you will be able to pull a 21 . Until you add the wedge and plate you may not enjoy the props you are testing . As I have said before the prop that you will like will be a personal choice that works well with your personal likes and dislikes . Pro 3 power tech and Yamaha pro series are a great match for a guy that like to run his HPX like a bass boat trimmed to the max boat riding on the small narrow pad on the bottom . If your more into great over all grip in turns a great hole shot and a good top end not over trimmed the Merc Spite fire will do what your looking for . The Merc spite fire stock will need to have a little less pitch than the Pro Series Yamaha or Pro 3 power tech . Talk to guys running the same exact boat and motor as you if any are close and are willing to test your boat and put there go to prop on your boat after you add the wedge and plate it would speed up the search for the perfect prop for you . Did you talk to Marcus yourself ? Did you tell him what props I suggested you try ? Tell him Joe R suggested them maybe Marcus will pick your brain more and get a better idea exactly what you are looking for and what is happening . Yesterday we installed the wedges and ran the SCD 19, pro 19 that were 4 blades and the original 3 blade NRS 19 and a 3 blade Talon 20…. Only the SCD was near acceptable but not feeling there yet…The Negative trim took out all the bounce or porpoising through the mid range on all the 4 blades….Hooray! Now that test was with two people, full fuel and gear load…downside? Top speed 42 at 5200 rpms and started bouncing…added trim to take out but speed never changed and WOT was 5700. Pro would not hit 40 and 5300 WOT…. Markus last night said that probably as good as we will get and I won’t really ever be the speed demon…. My pause is it doesn’t feel as crisp as other boats I have owned…much closer though as my dealer said, before the wedges it just bounced like crazy…. Several have asked about experimenting with raising engine….have wondered about SCD in a different pitch….not sure of what;s next 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Seither Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 If it were me I’d fish a bit to evaluate everything that has been done, hole shot, mid range cruise and economy, handling than decide the next direction, The Spitfire smaller diameter 12.7 like Bear stated looks like whats needed for the rest of the RPM,s. You still have the option for the Bobs true track plate as well, I would definitely get her on the water and wet a line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 15 Author Report Share Posted May 15 Reviewed results with Ken at Prop Gods as well as other recommendations. He had been in favor of testing by altering motor height. So we have moved it down two holes and will test in a few hours. Still examining some prop options . Some thought of at least trying a 17p SCD And a few others But I expect we will either fish post the change of lowering the motor or fish after we move the motor back down Also gives us time to locate a few props that deserve an audition We do intend to film the how the plate looks in test today and submit to Ken for review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 15 Author Report Share Posted May 15 Today ran SCD 19with engine down two holes to 4rd hole. Also had Capt with 18 join us. Like many have said, aggressive throttle is what the Mirage likes. Very little bounce at high end only and it was handle with small trim and small tab. He was not a fan however of motor being up. To me it seemed pretty crisp. Hole shot very good. Did not see an increase in WOT or top end of 42 with 2 people and full fuel. I do wonder about the length of our run if both would increase on a longer run. Plan of Action is to try SCD 4 blade with 18P. Then fish whichever seems best . After evaluating fishing, we will then make decision on motor height. All in all, we are FAR Better than we were when mid range porpoising was like a carnival ride. Likely test and fish next week if weather allows 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanaflatsfish Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 Mega, I have been here for many years....yours is the first large prop challenge of this magnitude that I can remember. This skiff is one of the MOST popular in the industry for its price point in the last 10 years.....for the life of me, I can't understand how this can be so complicated.....have you totally eliminated any hull issues or other factors??? Have you contacted any of the other guides listed in the Keys on what they are running? Have you called Caribee Marina in the Keys to ask them? Or Bob Hewes in Miami...they sell a lot of these skiffs. I don't have a good solution....but, you are with some of the best in the prop'n business.... Very disappointing that MBG has not been more actively engaged.....but, sounds like you got a good dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 16 Author Report Share Posted May 16 1 minute ago, Wanaflatsfish said: Mega, I have been here for many years....yours is the first large prop challenge of this magnitude that I can remember. This skiff is one of the MOST popular in the industry for its price point in the last 10 years.....for the life of me, I can't understand how this can be so complicated.....have you totally eliminated any hull issues or other factors??? Have you contacted any of the other guides listed in the Keys on what they are running? Have you called Caribee Marina in the Keys to ask them? Or Bob Hewes in Miami...they sell a lot of these skiffs. I don't have a good solution....but, you are with some of the best in the prop'n business.... Very disappointing that MBG has not been more actively engaged.....but, sounds like you got a good dealer. dealer has been great. They hadn’t seen one like this but actually a hand full of folks have expressed that had issues. And some haven’t resolved them. Interestingly those that had them offered lots of advice and much of it varied. We made a list and working through it some love jackplates. Others said no jackplate and then said others removed their jackplates. Lots of differences in prop choices. And more. variances in hulls must be common as the esteemed Markus said every boat is different. One thought that persisted was stern weight might be heavier. I have a power pole, transducer, 4 life jackets, fire extinguisher , horn , a box of leader material, paper work and a Orvis boat bag with flies & rain gear. Standard stuff. I have two lithium batteries in the console. Up front I have the Riptude Instinct which is heavier but the starter lithium normalizes that. I am a hefty 180. Nothing out of the norm. One person or Two. Full fuel or 8 gallons didn’t change performance. Dealer looked for hook. None found. Not sure why the negative wedge made such a huge difference. I had never heard of them until this forum . That little extra trim knocked out the mid range where the bounce was so great. After that I think it’s simply looking for the right pitch. But I think it’s very fishable now even though WOT is short. Is there something unique about the transom that impacts the angle of the motor? Doesn’t look like it but makes you wonder since a little extra negative trim did so much And it should be pointed out that the dealer has done 95% of the testing . Certainly they have plenty of other things to be doing They have reached out to their resources I have relied on forum and Facebook plus a few captains I know . I have been back on the boat just last two days and ecstatic that progress is being made and most importantly it doesn’t have to go to the factory to check the hull. I certainly don’t feel like the Lone Ranger as several folks that have the problem and have reached out. My posts are more to pay it forward to the next person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabear Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 Mega Bites you seen the major improvement Thst the wedge . Remember I said put the plate on the lower unit and the wedges . That will get you close than after installing them play props . I know a lot of people don’t think either of these are necessary but try them together it will really make the boat ride and perform well . Than if you can run the ameri Spitefire . You may not think so but that boat will run way faster than 42 mph . Install the plate run it smile than fine tune your ride with the prop for you . I am happy that you finally installed one of the two parts . Next the plate that will help out with a lot of props . After the plate the Spitefire will dial on your ride . The plate doesn’t look bad I had mine powder costed black . You won’t be able to turn the 21 Spitefire I did but you should be in the ball park with the 19 . My 21 was highly modified . Good luck 🍀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 16 Author Report Share Posted May 16 1 minute ago, dabear said: Mega Bites you seen the major improvement Thst the wedge . Remember I said put the plate on the lower unit and the wedges . That will get you close than after installing them play props . I know a lot of people don’t think either of these are necessary but try them together it will really make the boat ride and perform well . Than if you can run the ameri Spitefire . You may not think so but that boat will run way faster than 42 mph . Install the plate run it smile than fine tune your ride with the prop for you . I am happy that you finally installed one of the two parts . Next the plate that will help out with a lot of props . After the plate the Spitefire will dial on your ride . The plate doesn’t look bad I had mine powder costed black . You won’t be able to turn the 21 Spitefire I did but you should be in the ball park with the 19 . My 21 was highly modified . Good luck 🍀 Thanks. We have a Yamaha colored plate in our hands. And have been looking at Spitfire. Below is probably more than most will read . This is just for the few that have this issue or had it and corrected it. Here is my working theory Looking at the forest and not the trees- weight distribution - my bow has the heaviest trolling motor made in the new riptide Instinct at shipping wt if 110 lbs plus a lithium battery of 27 lbs up front. And 29 gallons of gas weighing 174lbs. Not too light. my console has two lithium batteries Stern weight? It is pretty normally equipped, power pole, transducer and normal fishing gear and safety equipment that everyone carries. So what would make the stern seem heavier than normal that would make the boat porpoise at midrange beyond what could be controlled normally? Well one theory is a slight change in engine trim can drive the stern downward, right? Trim engine up raises bow by pushing stern down. If the transom had a slight aberration, that could happen where a fully trimmed down engine actually has a few degrees of downward push-In a sense, artificially making the stern heavier as it drives it downward. And potentially creating bounce. (And particularly since number of persons or amount of fuel didn’t really change the bounce) If full downward trim creates even a few degrees of downward push, How to mitigate? Well one simple way is a negative trim wedge that changes the engines angle of push from downward to horizontal. Suddenly the stern is more buoyant than before, Possible? Well this all might be waaaay off base Sometimes in life however the answers to seemingly complex problems are right in front of you Remember, this boat is probably one in a thousand that at Maverick’s direction had to have a hole cut into a storage compartment to attach some of the drain hoses that weren’t connected. If a rare boat can have a hook, it would seem a transom could ,albeit rare, not be “square”. (Or any of the things where the motor attaches for that matter could impact it similarly-Stuff happens ) My theory might be nonsense but maybe not. Nevertheless, the solution is at hand Understand, I know Mavericks are great boats. I have fished on them. I checked references and know captains that have them. I have no regrets In another couple of weeks, I am confident it will all be great and I won’t remember any of this. And kudos to the forum. A wealth of great info. My numerous posts are simply to pay it forward. Several have asked that I keep them updated. That audience is the one I am addressing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanaflatsfish Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 8 hours ago, Mega Bites said: Remember, this boat is probably one in a thousand that at Maverick’s direction had to have a hole cut into a storage compartment to attach some of the drain hoses that weren’t connected. Not true...my buddy had the same issue several years ago. Don't get me wrong....I'm a MBG supporter for over 20 years, but, they need to focus on the details...stuff I'm seeing (Fisherman's floor loose), consoles shaking, loose wiring, bilges not draining, a hand rail without a nut attached, etc. is a direct result of lack of focus and QC checks in the production process. DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 16 Author Report Share Posted May 16 42 minutes ago, Wanaflatsfish said: Not true...my buddy had the same issue several years ago. Don't get me wrong....I'm a MBG supporter for over 20 years, but, they need to focus on the details...stuff I'm seeing (Fisherman's floor loose), consoles shaking, loose wiring, bilges not draining, a hand rail without a nut attached, etc. is a direct result of lack of focus and QC checks in the production process. DC Gotcha. I misunderstood. When I researched other options and all the horror stories including a well known Florida based captain that posted a video of removing his manufacturer’s decals because of horrendous service and another telling me tales of towing his boat multiple times back to the manufacturer, I liked the model utilizing dealers particularly when I have relationships with strong customer service dealers. Tims earned my respect before the Maverick and I am so thankful for them in this case. (I have another dealer for my Champion that has also been outstanding) I don’t know if change of ownership of the manufacturer has changed the focus In all fields that is a common paradigm. Maverick responded with a fix on the drain hoses with a suggested action plan Hopefully they are compensating the dealer for their efforts . Last report which is a week old Maverick had not responded on the bounce issue . They may have since and I am unaware Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanaflatsfish Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 1 hour ago, Mega Bites said: I don’t know if change of ownership of the manufacturer has changed the focus In all fields that is a common paradigm. I've spoken to the team at the boat show two years ago....they had Pandemic issues like everyone and I understand about parts, delays, etc. I'm in Supply Chain. Again, I've owned 5 MBG boats....RF 18 2003, Pathfinder 2005, Pathfinder 1998T, MA17 1995, and now a HPS 23 2019...I'm not a basher....but, when you see on the various forums, people selling their pre -2020 boats, as Pre-Malibu, I would hope the Sr. Mgt at Malibu is looking at this seriously.....we've discussed this ad-nausium on this forum....any boat from any manufacturer is probably 25% hull and the rest is: electrical wiring, bilge pumps, hoses, AMERITRAIL, Yamaha engine, T-Tops made by an outside vendor, etc. etc.....HULL Design, best in class IMHO for the HPX and Bay Boats....they built the industry...many others have followed...Kevin's boats at East Cape are very good, Hells Bay is a legend, Beavertail, Chitham, Egret etc. the list goes on....the difference is production vs Bespoke....if you are in a production environment, you MUST HAVE EXCELLENT controls in place to check and double check the details.....People don't say....by wiring panel is broke...they say, my boat is down....I just believe that with a bit more focus, MBG could get back to what made them great......in the old days, when you had a problem, you picked up the phone and Called Ray Ayers or Skip Lyshon, or even Scott Deal....they took the call and it got resolved....understanding the dealer network...but, I think sometimes, unlike a car dealer, this is a luxury item for most buyers, unlike a car.... Off my soap box....I'm happy to see your progress..... DC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 16 Author Report Share Posted May 16 I like your soapbox. We see your observation play out so many times. I come at it from a different perspective seeing a life time of work diminished by a new owner. I founded a tech company when we was 28. Developed tech for financial institutions doing consumer and small business credit. Our product integrated numerous processes in the approval and execution phases of lending. Actually was labeled as artificial intelligence (albeit very primitive by today’s advances). GE and others invested. Won Company of the year awards. Excellent compounded annual growth rate. High customer retention. Service our differentiation. Clients had my cellphone number as CEO but I can’t think of a time ever a client called me for a service failure. Our culture, compensation, metrics and more were aligned to measure our success by our clients success. A Fortune 500 company bought us. The changes the new owner made to the business were not in alignment with what made us great. I told them in 3 years they would destroy what they paid a premium for. 3 years later they sold it at a huge discount. The differentiation of service was gone. Not usual a business discourse happens on a marine forum. But my mantra and what I taught is “what’s measured is managed, what’s managed is improved and what’s compensated gets done first!” I am not they teach that in business school anymore sorry for my soapbox. Let’s fish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Seither Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 Fish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Bites Posted May 16 Author Report Share Posted May 16 Agree. Go away Wind. Mid May is usually prime time for trout at least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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