Prop Chatter AGAIN

[Ron in Atlanta]

The old boat, a 2000V with 115 Yamaha, started to get some very noticeable prop chatter while idling in gear.  She had over 1000 hours and everyone said that prop chatter was inevitable and unfixable.  "Just give it some throttle" they said.  True, that quiets it down but remember, we spend 90% of our time at idle looking for wildlife in back creeks and/or shallow flats.

The new boat, the 2200 TRS, has a 150 Yamaha with the Reliant Series, shift dampening feature.  No prop chatter UNTIL, just got it back from 200 hour service, put it in reverse and it sounds like there are marbles bouncing around inside the engine.  Went from quiet to quite loud just after the service.  My long time tech/mechanic said that's the way they are.  

I think a year old motor should not make this kind of noise, especially with the Reliant series prop.

Any ideas as to how to quiet this thing down?

[HewesYourDaddy]

I don't agree with the "that's the way they are" statement.  I would get a second opinion from another qualified mechanic or call Yamaha (which is what I'd do) and explain situation. They may send one of their factory mechanics to look at it. A friend of mine with a F150 had an extreme power loss and noise while running to the beach one day. Only 49hrs on the engine. A factory representative/mechanics came in and diagnosed the problem as a sheared lobe from the camshaft. They replaced power head and it turns out the dealer installed and cranked the engine momentarily without oil before my friend bought the boat. Damage was done. Now, I'm not saying that's your problem, but engines just don't start making noises like that all of a sudden.

[SCFD rtrd.]

Might want to pull the prop and make sure he put the washers back correctly and that the prop nut is secure (torqued down). Additionally, is the motor idling at the correct RPM?

[Ron in Atlanta]

2 hours ago, SCFD rtrd. said:

Might want to pull the prop and make sure he put the washers back correctly and that the prop nut is secure (torqued down). Additionally, is the motor idling at the correct RPM?

Yes on the correct idle, I'll go check the washers tomorrow morning.  I understand these props have some "special" washers to the rear of the prop.

Thanks.

[Ron in Atlanta]

On 7/13/2017 at 0:54 PM, HewesYourDaddy said:

I don't agree with the "that's the way they are" statement.  I would get a second opinion from another qualified mechanic or call Yamaha (which is what I'd do) and explain situation. They may send one of their factory mechanics to look at it. A friend of mine with a F150 had an extreme power loss and noise while running to the beach one day. Only 49hrs on the engine. A factory representative/mechanics came in and diagnosed the problem as a sheared lobe from the camshaft. They replaced power head and it turns out the dealer installed and cranked the engine momentarily without oil before my friend bought the boat. Damage was done. Now, I'm not saying that's your problem, but engines just don't start making noises like that all of a sudden.

Noise is louder now.  I called Yamaha and the customer service guy answered the same way I expected, "Give it some more throttle and have you tried an aluminum prop?"

I explained that we spend 90% of our time in gear at idle looking for wildlife and no, I don't want an aluminum prop.  He insisted that this prop chatter is "normal" even on a year-old motor.  They don't send out a factory mechanic, they do direct you to one of the local dealerships to have it checked out further at which time the dealer's tech can call Yamaha for further action, if warranted.

I am concerned that Yamaha is not going to step up to this problem and own it which is why I am documenting the progress here.

By the way, I know you guys are rarely at idle in gear unless just leaving the slip in the marina or at the ramp, BUT, if you get a chance, slip her into gear in reverse and also in forward, keep her at idle for a moment and tell me if it sounds like marbles bouncing around under the cover or is she quiet???  Which Yamaha model, how old??

Thanks.

[mulligan]

Not that this will fix the issue but have you tried to trim out some while idling around?  I know my setup runs smoother with some trim instead of tucked in.

[fin-addict]

03' 150 vmax hpdi 537 hrs. no marbles.

[bernieNC]

No marbles. 2013 F150 OFX4 17 ported. I do idle around a fair amount of time in marshes.

[fishmanjj]

1 hour ago, Ron in Atlanta said:

Noise is louder now.  I called Yamaha and the customer service guy answered the same way I expected, "Give it some more throttle and have you tried an aluminum prop?"

I explained that we spend 90% of our time in gear at idle looking for wildlife and no, I don't want an aluminum prop.  He insisted that this prop chatter is "normal" even on a year-old motor.  They don't send out a factory mechanic, they do direct you to one of the local dealerships to have it checked out further at which time the dealer's tech can call Yamaha for further action, if warranted.

I am concerned that Yamaha is not going to step up to this problem and own it which is why I am documenting the progress here.

By the way, I know you guys are rarely at idle in gear unless just leaving the slip in the marina or at the ramp, BUT, if you get a chance, slip her into gear in reverse and also in forward, keep her at idle for a moment and tell me if it sounds like marbles bouncing around under the cover or is she quiet???  Which Yamaha model, how old??

Thanks.

Ron, did you check the thick brass washer behind the prop and the locking washer on the outside of prop  ??  If it was'nt rattling before service, I would be highly suspicious of the re-installation of hardware. Mine is a 2009 F 150 with no marbles.........

Number 1 tip when reinstalling a prop : Put the thrust washer that you removed from the propeller shaft back onto the shaft in the same way and orientation as it was when you took it off. The thrust washer's tapered side will match exactly with the taper on the propeller shaft if you've done this correctly.

[HarleyG8r]

Some Yamahas have a plastic bushing with a stainless cap and a couple bent washers that goes over the driveshaft on top of the water pump. Looks like the F150 is one of 'em. The purpose is to load the driveshaft to keep the gears from chattering at idle speed. Look at part numbers 9, 10, 11, 12 in the link below:

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/Outboard/2006 and Later/150TXR/LOWER CASING DRIVE 1/parts.html

I'd bet good money that your mechanic re-installed these incorrectly or not at all. They're a pain in the butt to get back on. Should be easy to see when you drop the LU.

[FINCHASER]

7 hours ago, HarleyG8r said:

Some Yamahas have a plastic bushing with a stainless cap and a couple bent washers that goes over the driveshaft on top of the water pump. Looks like the F150 is one of 'em. The purpose is to load the driveshaft to keep the gears from chattering at idle speed. Look at part numbers 9, 10, 11, 12 in the link below:

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/Outboard/2006 and Later/150TXR/LOWER CASING DRIVE 1/parts.html

I'd bet good money that your mechanic re-installed these incorrectly or not at all. They're a pain in the butt to get back on. Should be easy to see when you drop the LU.

Thatd definitely be worth checking.... its actually not hard to put on you just have to lift up on the drive shaft when seating the collar. 

As far as prop chatter... My F150 was pretty quite when I first bought it.  When I pulled the prop for the 1st service I found the prop nut was finger tight, so when I re installed the nut I torqued it down pretty good.  Next time out it sounded like the marble thing as you describe ectremely loud and annoying!  So I loosened the nut and put it back finger tight... voila.... back to the way it was before... I have ran It this way for over 1200 hrs with no problems

[Wanaflatsfish]

Ran a 2005 F150 with a OFX 18 prop...never a chatter as you described....It would "clunk" into gear....but, no marbles for extended periods of time....

Take it to a different marine specialist...NOT just a Yamaha mechanic....look for a regional 5 star rated mechanic by Yamaha.  

DC

[Ron in Atlanta]

Great insights guys!!!

HarleyG8r, you may have hit it on the nose, the very recent 200 hour INCLUDED REPLACING THE IMPELLER!  Looks like that's where those washers, etc. came from.  She is going in to a NEW MECHANIC in a couple of weeks, although I'm sure they just love to take advice from the customer, I'll forward this topic to them and ask if they will follow up on the great suggestions.

Thank you all.

[geeviam]

Ron,

Not sure of your setup, but just tossing in a possibility...  Do you run a Yamaha prop with a SDS hub (shift-dampening)?  If so, I recently learned that the SDS rubber inserts wear out over time and have to be replaced.  For what it's worth, here's a video on the procedure:

 

Talon_SDS_Propeller_Hub_Service.mp4

Edit:  Just saw in your first post that you are running a Reliance SDS prop.  Maybe it has the same type of rubber inserts as the Talon?

[Ron in Atlanta]

On 8/4/2017 at 8:02 AM, geeviam said:

Ron,

Not sure of your setup, but just tossing in a possibility...  Do you run a Yamaha prop with a SDS hub (shift-dampening)?  If so, I recently learned that the SDS rubber inserts wear out over time and have to be replaced.  For what it's worth, here's a video on the procedure:

Thank you for your additional suggestion.  Yes, this is a "shift dampening" type prop yet I don't think it is old enough to have worn out the insert (1 year, 200 hours).  I will keep this in mind for the future when the chatter starts again.

Looking at all the suggestions, I believe that the missing or miss-installed washers, etc. above the impeller housing are the culprit.  I just had the impeller replaced at the 200 hour service and my long time mechanic was looking ahead to back surgery the next week while doing this work.  My guess is that he was preoccupied with stuff other than my motor and may have (understandably) messed up this job.  She is going in to a new mechanic in a couple of weeks, I've sent the link to this thread to their service manager so they can check it out first thing.

This is too much drama for a new-ish boat and motor and I look forward to a quiet idle in the near future.  We are in the Atlanta suburbs, far from any real body of water so as a result, good dealerships and good techs and far and too few.  Nothing but pontoon boats and unattractive "Lake" boats up here (yes, I mean you , Sea Ray) which is why I bought both Pathfinders at a Stuart, Florida dealership, they know these boats well.  They are just a little too far a drive for the regular 100 hour service requirements.

Time to move South!

[geeviam]

23 hours ago, Ron in Atlanta said:

We are in the Atlanta suburbs, far from any real body of water so as a result, good dealerships and good techs and far and too few.  Nothing but pontoon boats and unattractive "Lake" boats up here (yes, I mean you , Sea Ray) which is why I bought both Pathfinders at a Stuart, Florida dealership, they know these boats well.  They are just a little too far a drive for the regular 100 hour service requirements.

Time to move South!

Bay Marine in Kennesaw, GA is about 35 miles from you.  Have you tried them for service work?  They are the Hewes - Cobia dealership for MBG that I bought my boat from and they have been good to me.  I have not had my 100 hour service with them yet, but they are Master Yamaha mechanics and I've heard that Yamaha Marine Group headquarters (also in Kennesaw, GA) uses Bay Marine mechanics for rigging when they want it done right.

Gary

[Ron in Atlanta]

On 8/5/2017 at 9:49 AM, geeviam said:

Bay Marine in Kennesaw, GA is about 35 miles from you. 

Yep, that's exactly were she's going in a couple of weeks, Bay Marine seems to have grown into becoming a decent Maverick Boat Company Dealership.

I had spoken with them early last year when I bought the 2200 TRS.  Although Greg and Angie, the owners, seemed to know the Pathfinder line and rigging them well, the sales guys acted like what they were, bass boat and pontoon boat sales folks.  I left there and bought the boat down in Stuart, FL at Lindsay Marine.  They know these boats, they know how to rig them, and they had many Pathfinders on the lot at the time.  That was good because I was undecided between a 24 or the 22.  Lindsay had one of each right next to each other.  I could literally walk around the deck of the 24 and then step over to the 22.  Because of that experience, I chose the 22 because with the goofy half step up to the forward deck, the 24 had less walking around room forward of the console than the 24!  So I bought the 22 for that reason.

At that time, Bay Marine only could get one or two Pathfinders in for inventory.

Since then, Greg, the owner, has taken over the sales role and you are right, they have a Yamaha Master Mechanic in the Service Department.  I am hoping that their proximity to Yamaha NA Operations will be as big a benefit as Lindsay Marine's proximity to MBC has been.

Thanks for the tip - I'll know just how good they are the week of Aug 21 when Miss Laurie goes in to fix the noise maker.

[geeviam]

Sounds good Ron.  Hopefully the problem will be resolved.  Best of luck!

[Ron in Atlanta]

On 8/1/2017 at 2:06 PM, HarleyG8r said:

I'd bet good money that your mechanic re-installed these incorrectly or not at all. 

Mr HarleyG8r, you win the bet!!!!!  Thank you so much for the tip and the very good advice.  Indeed the parts you described had been installed improperly.  The new mechanic at Bay Marine confirmed that and reinstalled them correctly (for $245 ).  I stopped at the old Marine Dealer, showed them your post and the bill from the fix and they wrote me a check that fully covered the repair on the spot.  It was the right thing to do and they did it.  Rare good news in these troubling times - customer service is alive and well north of Atlanta!

Thank you again for your spot on advice.  See you out there, I'll be in the very shiny and now quiet Pathfinder 22 TRS.

[HarleyG8r]

Glad to be of service, and that some of my past mistakes can benefit others! Now go sneak up on some fish.